Want to have more fun in your business and build more connection to your audience?

How has your own story led you to become an expert who can solve someone’s problem?

What if you knew people left your webinar with a real shift in their mindset (instead of wondering if you’d just put them to sleep)?

That’s what happens when you learn to tell your stories the right way!

Check out our latest episode with expert marketing storyteller, Ron Ben-Joseph.

Ron helps you keep your webinars, emails, and videos in the fresh zone by learning how to merge the art of storytelling with the buyer’s journey.

Don’t miss this one!

Katie: Welcome to the light in your launch podcast today, we're talking about why the story you should be telling in your business is your client's story. So stay tuned.

Announcer: Hey, we're in the Launch Squad and this is the Light Your Launch podcast. We teach coaches and course creators how to lighten their launches. We're bringing you all of the tips and strategies to take your launch from intimidating to money-making. In this podcast, we talk about everything; the sales, strategy, mindset, technical and spiritual aspects of running your best launch ever. So if you're feeling overwhelmed and unsure of the next right step, we're here to bring clarity, confidence, and excitement into your next launch. This is the Light Your Launch podcast.

Katie: Welcome back to the show. I'm Katie Collins, sitting here with my cohost Jeffrey Sarano. And today we are talking with Ron Ben Joseph, about the right way to use storytelling during your launch. So I wanted to bring Ron onto our show because I had worked with him in my own business, uh, several months ago now, but during COVID times when things were crazy and we got to connect several times and he just did an enormous amount of good for me when it came to understanding how to use storytelling in writing emails or even going live. Um, I come from such a teacher background that I'm all about the, how to, this is what you need to do. And Ron helped me round it out with better stories, because truly people learn through story more than anything. They recall a story so much better than they recall the content. So, um, so it's so fun to work with him and I just wanted to bring him to our listeners. Um, so Ron, I'd love to just give you a chance to take the big mic and tell us about you and how you even got started in doing this in the first place.

Ron: Thank you so much, Katie. I loved, I loved working with you. Um, so thank you so much for that like really warm intro. It's always nice to hear that it worked. Um, so it's funny. I still, like, I am still baffled that I get to do what I do every day and feel like a, like a director and feel like an artist. And, uh, so I started in theater, um, about 21 years ago and uh, in Chicago from Chicago. And I found that early on, I was like, I had this dream of being a director and the only directing I knew at the time was theater or film. And so I, I was in Chicago, so I was like, Oh, I'll start a theater company. And I found that if I just make phone calls, I can get in with anyone. Like if I was, I was having meetings at 19 years old with top directors, producers, people that are like super famous now, uh, and all because I just got on the phone and I said, Hey, I'm a student.

Ron: I'm studying theater thinking of being a, can I, can I hear your story? And I was essentially interviewing them if I was doing it now, of course I'd be podcasting, you know, and I would just email them and, and have them on our pockets. But, uh, but back then I'd go into their offices and I was like, wow, I can do anything. And then I started, um, a theater company and worked with really talented Broadway actors and, um, professional actors. And it was really cool. I except I was like, I can, I swear on the show? Is it,

Ron: Oh yeah, that's your. Yeah. I was like, I hate doctors. Um,

Ron: And uh, I mean, some, a lot of them are really good people, but, uh, I just, I was, I, I didn't have the wherewithal to navigate all of our egos and all of our emotions and all that. And I found it really draining the more, uh, the more professional people I was working with, the harder it was for me. And I was kind of like really bummed out about it. Cause I was like, what do I, what do I do? This is the only thing I know to do. And, and, um, there was some success in it and I was like, I don't know. So I went back to graduate school and I was like, what's, what's kind of what is acting for non-actors. And I was like, Oh, public speaking, you know, that seemed to make sense. So it was kind of a choice.

Ron: I was like, okay, I'll look into public speaking, went to graduate school, uh, got a communication and media degree and started teaching speech, uh, various colleges. And I was like, okay, well this is close. I, I, I love having a living and I love, uh, getting up and teaching this stuff and, and, and coaching people everyday. But I was like, I still, it wasn't just, it wasn't there yet. So to adjunct being an adjunct, I started a video business, uh, as you do, right? Because that was, I started making a full-time living at, and it was, it was rough. Uh, so I started a video business and that's where I really learned how to combine all of my skills, where I was like, okay, I love, I love the fact. And I love the freedom of being able to call people, creating opportunities, meeting new people, networking, all that stuff.

Ron: And at the same token telling stories and getting people to share their messages and present. And in my head, I was like, well, video will be kind of a gateway into doing bigger coachings and trainings on how to present and storytelling, you know, coming from theater, coming from performing myself, uh, just seem to be like, well, that's, that's a cool thing to kind of talk about. And it was becoming a buzzword. This is in the early 2000 teens, uh, and kind of Jeff and I were talking before that, I consider myself at the time, you know, it was like storytelling. The telling part was my focus initially. And I thought I would be this, this coach, you know, this acting coach for non-actors. Well, it turned out that I saw that if you focus on the story piece, the content piece, the, the structure of setting up a conflict and fighting towards a resolution in whatever marketing materials that, that the client was using.

Ron: I was like, well, that's, that's more effective in terms of engaging an audience. And on the performance side, helping my client be more authentic and truthful when they tapped into this issue that their client was going through. That's when it started all coming together and it didn't feel like a forced performance. It didn't feel canned. It was really cool. And I sort of feeling like, Oh my God, like, forget theater and film, you know, like I want to do this. This is like my art form. This seemed more freeing, uh, creatively. And I didn't have to deal with producers. They didn't have to deal with, you know, diva actors and all this stuff. And I, it took, I mean, it took a long time for me to be really emotionally okay with it. But once I was, I was, I went in like all in and it's just, it's been the coolest thing. And I, like I said, I, I can't believe I get to direct clients every day. That's a long story, but yeah,

Katie: I love it. It's awesome. And I think, um, you know, so much of our identity is built up in the career that we chose and that, you know, we're, we're esteemed, you know, I've a master's degree in this. Why am I going to let go of, of this? Right. But, you know, to your point, like you were like, I hated it. Right? So at some point it's like, we have to say, Hey, thanks so much for serving me well up until now. And it's time to move on. And, and what I love is all three of us have moved on from something that was kind of draining us, but we took the skills that we grew in those, you know, other fields. And we brought the skillset over to this new thing and, you know, we all work for ourselves and it's just, that's the definition of freedom. As far as I'm concerned, I get to pick who I work with.

Ron: Amen. Know, Katie, this is huge. Actually your time I have I've, uh, I have a show like, uh, a video cast that I do. Um, and that's kind of the thread of it is, is figuring out like how people discovered their true calling and their passions and how their initial wants led them on a career path and then how they fund themselves as ultimately as entrepreneurs and that freedom. And it's, it's, it's really cool being on this side of that, where I'm like, you know, like, yeah, it's everything you've said a hundred percent. Like I have to echo that. It's, it's the coolest thing. When you find entrepreneurship, uh, if you find it like authentically, I know people that made it as a decision where like, I want to be my own boss and I want to control everything. It's I don't think it works like that.

Ron: And no, you don't, you definitely don't. But, but it's like, it is cool to see that there is, or I guess like to communicate to others, that there is a world in which you can, um, you know, especially coming from like, like the arts or education, which, you know, we all come like it. I think when you are in those kinds of tough competitive environments, and if you, if you make it to a full-time teaching position, or if you make it, you know, into, uh, where you're directing consistently, you're acting consistently or whatever. And there's like, it's really hard to turn back. Right. It's hard because for some people it's their deepest dream. Yeah.

Katie: Like you got there, quote unquote, right. But then when you get there, you're like, Oh, is this what this is? And for me, it, it, I loved teaching, especially in my last job. I loved it so much. I did it for seven years, but I plateaued in my growth and I was never going to be able to grow beyond where I was. I was never going to make more money. I, there was no opportunity for promotion. I was going to keep doing that same job. And I watched others do that same job for 20 or 30 years. And I was like, no way, can I do this for 20 to 30 years? And even though I love it. Right. So

Ron: I remember it, you know, and, and, and like, when I was directing theater and I taught, uh, several times I taught at private high schools and I started theater departments and stuff. And I remember thinking, why don't I just get my teaching certificate and, you know, be a high school theater teacher. I'm like the salary, the, you know, the consistently to work like the consistency of, of working every day and having this like ensemble of actors. And I really didn't mind, like, I didn't care. Um, I, when I, when I was directing, I didn't care if you were 15, or if you were a Tony nominated actor, I didn't care. Um, it was just the idea of working. And I think like, yeah, I remember, but it's it's you said it I'm like, it's so true. I remember that feeling of like, it's like this train that like you, if you're lucky enough to get on, you don't get off until the ending. And that ending is the end of your career. Like, you don't leave a high school theater position, a full-time cause those are, those are harder to come by than a Broadway position, like, you know, in many ways. So yeah, it's like, it is, it is a real thing where it's like that the E the like letting go of the ego and, and, and really owning what your true passion really, really, really is deep inside and transitioning into that thing is really hard emotionally.

Katie: But to think about how much happier you can be. Cause to me, I was just grossly underpaid and I just wanted to double my income, which was not asking for a lot. It was asking for like a typical American single woman, right? Like single salary household. I wanted to double my teacher salary. And once I did that, I was like, ah, I'm so glad I made that jump, even though it was super scary because it just opened up all of this other opportunity. And I know part of my positioning as a business coach is that I'm a former teacher. And when I teach things, it's clear, I'm very organized. I'm, I'm accountable. I hold other people accountable, just like a teacher. And I kind of joke about it when we do live launch weeks, you know, if somebody didn't do their homework, I send them a message.

Katie: And I'll be like former teacher here, just checking in, where's your homework. Right. So a little tongue in cheek of like, Hey, this, you know, the reason why we did homework was because that's how you learn. And it's the same thing as an adult in a five day challenge or in a live launch, you know, where we're giving homework, because we want people to be able to use this material, not just learn about it, but use it, put it to work. And so anyway, so I do bring back the former teacher in me quite often.

Ron: And I have to say too, as something that really stuck out in what you said is like, you know, we're we're right now, we're recording this. It's it's, we're hopefully at the end of a pandemic,

Katie: Right? The downward slope, downward slope, either way. Exactly. Right. We'll agree.

Ron: Oh, fingers crossed, like you said, Jeff we'll agree. Hopefully it's a downward slope. Um, and I'm hoping that, and I really, this might sound so naive, but after having my child home for a year, um, and, uh, you know, she, we just, we just sent her back. We felt like it was safe to, we sent her back to, um, her preschool and in the fall she started kindergarten. Like, I really hope that they resolve this matter of the fact that you were paid so little as a teacher, you know, like, like that in of itself is an issue that I think we like, hopefully will address at some point in life where it's, cause it's as setting. I think a lot of people having their kids home and homeschooling and all that, hopefully they see that

Jeffrey: Maybe like a little more appreciation. Yeah. Yeah. Appreciation and appreciation. Like how do people do this all day with 30 kids I can barely handle to yeah. For hunger for under $50,000. Right. It's just like,

Ron: It is the most important you have the most important thing to me, it's my child. I want you to take care of it for, you know, 40 hours a week. Yeah. But I don't, I don't expect you to live comfortably after you leave that environment, you know, like you don't, you don't get to have extra money

Katie: And rethink your teacher gifts. Cause I'm telling you, most teachers do not want a number one, teacher coffee mug,

Jeffrey: An Apple, right.

Katie: It's like rethink like the generosity when you gift your teachers. I'll just say that. But anyway, let's move on to storytelling. Um, so

Katie: You know, one way that Ron and I really intersect is this concept of like story selling. Right. The first time I heard that phrase, um, uh, it was, I keep wanting to say Donald Miller, but that's not, um, copy that sells Raymond Edwards. So Raymond Edwards coined the, I think that's where I first read it. He coined that phrase in his book, um, how to write, copy, that sells story selling, right? So there's, there's an element of using storytelling, but that we've got to have a way to use storytelling so that we're selling. And so he, you know, me being a sales coach, you being a storytelling artist, we really intersected nicely and you could really, you know, you really helped me just see how I could bring a little bit more fun into it. Um, and that's really what, you know, partly why I wanted to bring you on the show today. So, so break down for our listeners, you know, what is storytelling when it comes to entrepreneurs that are marketing their, their stuff.

Ron: So I love talking about this and, and, and I, again, Jeff and I were talking about before the recording, like I, once, uh, I once was invited to speak somewhere and it was, it was my last time that I was invited to this place. This was like three years ago. Uh, and they wanted me to talk about storytelling for sales. And I came in and I was like, you know, the w the, the person that introduced me, the host, she was like, you know, you, we all have these stories within us that, you know, are so important. And Ron's going to tell us how we can use our stories. And I was like, yeah, no, I'm not going to do that. Uh, what I do is, is I didn't say mansplain you that way. I wasn't like, Oh, you're so sweet. No, the way I do it now, I was like, actually, this is how I lure people in it's, you know, we, we talk about storytelling because storytelling has become a buzzword, I think, in the past five, 10 years where, you know, people think that it's a lot of people that I've met have said that it's, you know, they they're like, yeah, I wanted to share my story and talk about myself in a better way.

Ron: Now there's a time and place for that. A hundred percent talking about yourself is an art form. And I think it's a very challenging one. And I say that, like having done standup, and I have a comedy show that when there is not a pandemic going on performing and talking about myself and whatever, but like, there's, there's an art form to it. But I think that when we're in business, the self that people care about is the self that can help someone else solve a problem. And so I always say with my clients, like everything that we talk about in story is an aid of whatever information, whatever experiences you've had as a business artist, as a business person, you know, how have those things led to you being an expert in solving your client's problem. And so this notion of storytelling is about their story, your client's story versus your story.

Ron: Because I think that that's what people care about when it comes to you and your business. Does that make sense? Like you will represent a solution and we can use story as this way of wrapping a bunch of information that might seem to not have threads. We can thread it together into a narrative arc that gets them from where they're at right now, which might suck, you know, or where there's issues or where they want to grow from and go, here's how we can in a linear fashion, understand the processes and the steps that will get you to where you want to be. And to, to that transformation that we all yearn for.

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I love the narrative arc. Like, um, I think that I personally help a lot of people write their, you know, what's commonly called their hero's journey story. So, you know, you start with a high point, what positions you to be the expert today, and what success do you have that your people want? And you say that right. Then we go to the low point, you know, and the joke where I learned it from the joke in that community was, but it wasn't always this way. That was like, everybody's like I teach second grade writing. And the joke was that they would, all their conclusions were all in all. I like dogs. And so here we are in this, you know, new world, people are making more than six figures a year, and every one of them is saying, but it wasn't always this way.

Katie: But anyway, then they go into their low point and they talk about, you know, the struggle that their current client is having. Then they go to the turning, which basically says, then I did this thing that I'm about to tell you to do, right. And that changed everything. And then we land back on the high point. And what I find is I can teach that over and over, you know, I use phrases like the guiding light, and this is about them, not you. Um, it's your story, but it should be reflective of what they need to hear, not your chronological order. I graduated college in 1997. I became a school teacher. I did that for 17 years. Like no one cares about that. What do they care about? And start your story there. So it's just an interesting, they don't, they don't understand the narrative part of the story because they get so, especially like I work with a lot of heart center people they get so caught up in, I don't want to lie. I don't want to mislead. I want to tell the true story. And, and so there's something, nothing that goes on where, you know, you can, it's still a true story, but give yourself a narrative license to make it an interesting one.

Ron: Right?

Jeffrey: Let me ask you if I, if I correct, if I understand this correctly, um, just to clarify for our listener, uh, who may not fully be traveling along with us. Uh, okay. Okay. It's me. I'm not fully traveling. Yeah.

Ron: Okay. I know you said listener, right?

Jeffrey: Uh, so what we're talking about is creating a narrative around our clients because it's there because they're the heroes of their story and we're not, we're not the hero of their story. We're not their hero. We're not their savior. We're just the NSA. We we're the guide. We're the Gandalf in the, in the story, right. Not the Frodo.

Ron: Well, yeah. So, so here's, uh, like hopefully there's a, uh, a helpful example. Are you Jeff? Are you a star Wars fan?

Jeffrey: Totally. Don't I look like a star Wars fan,

Ron: But I don't want to tell you I was 20, 21. You can't jump to conclusions. And again, post, post 2018, you really can't, you know, like you can't post solo and last Jedi, you can't like you can't judge anymore. You know what I mean? So like, I, you know, if you're a star Wars fan, right? Like the past few years might've been awesome for you, they might've been for you. Right. Um, like I, like, I watched the Mandalorian, but it, it feels like watching Wanda vision, like, it just feels like a chore to me. I'm like, I'm doing it because I see the value in it. But I mean, I, it, and it's good. I definitely like the Mandalorian better than some of the rise of Skywalker personally, but, and I respect people who like rise of Skywalker. I'm just saying, um, but we have a, so what I'm getting at is that my heart's a little bit torn.

Ron: Right? Okay. So the last episode of, of the Mandalorian was really cool. And I, I had a friend text me, Oh my God. Oh my God, what's the last five minutes. Oh my God. Oh my God. You know, and I loved it when it was rogue one. And, um, so I watched it and I was like, I was kind of like, like, I was like, I got a divorce two years ago. So maybe that like affects how I experience things. But like, I also think that, like, there's been a lot of movies and star Wars. And I just, I was cold to that light, to that ending that people were so excited about. So like, it wasn't as you know, like right. Skywalker was more traumatic than my divorce and I, that all being said, there's an Obi wan Kenobi series that's coming up and I will run, not walk to watch that show. Why?

Ron: Because Obi wan Kenobi is the epitome of, in my opinion, like he's such a phenomenal teacher. He's such a phenomenal solution provider. He is what I think. And I talk about in my, in my business all the time, he is the one even more than Yoda. Yoda is. So Sage Yoda so far from you obiwan is one of us, right? Like he's a Jedi he's, he's been in the, in the thick of it. Um, but his journey into being, uh, like, uh, a coach and a trainer, more so for Luke and again, Scott Walker, but really for Luke, like he was that first one that really like showed Luke. Like, you can have more, you can live more, you can do more with your life. You can pursue your dreams. Like you don't have to stay here. He really got him to literally get on a, you know, on the ship and go and leave, leave his current circumstances.

Ron: So I'm excited as hell to watch the Obi wan Kenobi series, no matter what other stuff has happened, that has gotten me less excited because to me, I want to really see those years leading up to him being the mentor that I know that he is. So, so everything that he experiences in, the new show, which will lead into, which is after, um, you know, Darth Vader becomes our Vader. And then it leads into him being, uh, Luke's teacher for a little bit like that. That's what I want to see how he became so wise and how he became so cool and so helpful. Right. So the way we use our stories to help others and the client stories, I go, you know, we shape everything that we've done to be an expert so that you benefit from it. So I'll give an example of a time that I, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I, I crossed that threshold. I became successful at it. And then from that, you gain all, I think, well, Fran, did, I can do that. Yeah. Does that make sense? Those mistakes? I don't have

Jeffrey: To make those mistakes. Yeah, exactly.

Katie: Yeah. And there has to be elements in the story that are relatable. So that was something that I learned, you know, I'd, I've written so many versions of my hero's journey. Right. And I probably did start off with, I graduated college in 1997, which nobody cares. So, um, it's really like what part of my story does my listener need to hear? And so, so maybe it wasn't, I took out a home equity line of credit because not owns a home and they can't do that. So then they take themselves out of the story. Oh, well, she overcame that because she got a hilar loan, but I don't have a home. So I can't get a HELOC loan. Therefore I can't be the hero of my story. Right. So that's why you hear people be a little vague. Like, they're like, I didn't have the money, but you know what? I found it, I got resourceful and I found it and they don't tell how, because we want it to be as relatable as possible to the person. And it's that real, you know, it's so it's the relate-ability. And so that's what I heard in your example, Ron was like, you know, Yoda, it's maybe not relatable. It's so spiritual. Right. But the other character, I'm not a star Wars.

Jeffrey: Well, no, no. That's, that's a perfect point. That was a perfect point story. Yeah. Yoda's got the big, the big concept. Yoda's got the big idea and then you go to Obi-Wan and say, okay, what was the other talking about? Just give it to Mario. Right.

Katie: Right. And that's our job, right. Like as, as storytellers. So, so Ron, tell me, um, I know that, you know, I've kind of joked about how you might start your story. Like I was born or, you know, I call it graduated college. So some people go on and on and on.

Jeffrey: And then this one time in band camp. Yeah.

Katie: Because not only did they go on and on, but, um, I I've learned, I've been getting some media training, how to get interviewed on the media and the concept of sound bites came up. How you have to be able to succinctly say what you do in a sound bite that the media could use coming up next, we have an interview with business coach, Katie Collins, who will share boom sound bite. Right. Like, um, and so how, how can we help people? How can we prevent people from going in Not and on and on and on and on and on. And,

Katie: Um, I think what I'm looking for too is just that power of the pause to let things sink in. Cause there's the story. And then there's the story telling. Right. So yeah. So, so go, go into that a little bit,

Ron: A hundred percent. So, so what I found that if I, if I work with someone who is just terrified when I started my business as a public speaking coach, and if I'm, if I work with someone who's terrified of the, the telling, the speaking, the, the presentation, the performance, I was like, I always sit down. I'm like, let's take the pressure off of you and make it about your audience. And let's set up a conflict that they can relate to, that they can buy into. And I would do this. Um, I would do this when I taught inner city, I taught a really tough inner city colleges in Chicago. And I would come in and I'd be like, I'd be like you guys on the way over here. And then I would freeze. And I was, I have to explain that I freeze because you know, with everything being on zoom and videotape, like, it looks like I'm like actually frozen.

Ron: So when I was teaching classes, I'd be like you guys on the effing way over here. And I would freeze every kid, every student, every, and these, these, these students had tough lives. I'm not exaggerating. Like it was, it was intense. They would, they would put their phones down, they would look up and then they'd start laughing. They'd be like, Aw, he's not talking. And I saw that, just setting up a conflict because on the way over there, I mean, a lot of could have happened. Like, like I would see, you know, uh, police tape and I would see like, again, police pulling like people over and you saw so much crazy things, so many, so many crazy things that for them, that was a real conflict on the way over here something happened. I didn't have to finish the statement. When I worked with people, they were terrified of public speaking.

Ron: I go, let's create this conflict, like drop a bomb and be like, and then just let it sit there. And, uh, and that bond could be a question. How many of you have ever wanted to make more money, but didn't know how that's a conflict. Now, if I throw that down, I'm going to listen. Like if your audience is going to listen to you to find that ending, they have to wait until the ending to figure out what happens next. I think a lot of people where I see really what you're talking about, Katie, where, where it really falls short for me is in webinars where it's like sign up for my free webinar. I'm going to give you so much great content, my free webinar, my free webinar. And in that webinar, I'm going to sell you on a $10,000 package. So it's like 10.

Ron: It's like maybe, maybe like five minutes. They give you like one idea. And then, and then it's 50 minutes of talking around the issue and selling you in it. And I think those are so fake. If, if you, as a, as a business owner, as a speaker, as a storyteller, if you are really care, like if you really cared and heart-centered in, and if you really want to help your client come up with that big gem that they are, that they are losing sleep over. And I'm not saying in a fear way, I'm saying in a relatable way, like, what is it that's really standing in the way of them getting what they want and just go there, man, just start with that. And if you think about any good movie that you love, like it starts with that, um, it's, you know, Thanos getting like the first stone in, in infinity war or, you know, like the Avengers or, or, um, I always say like, you know, in Rocky Balboa, Rocky, the first Rocky movie, I use that example all the time in my teaching and my coaching, like Rocky, you know, he's in a, he's, he's fighting in a church and he's miserable.

Ron: Like he's back backstage. He's, uh, he's in the gym afterwards and he's miserable. Like, and you see like, man, this guy, like, he's like, he's going through something. I don't know what it is, but I'm going to find out what it is. And I hope it gets better by the ending. So setting up a conflict upfront is huge. Then once you have that conflict and a conflict really at its core is two forces, want two different things. So ultimately it's what does your client want? And what is the force that is stopping them from getting it? If you articulate that for them, that in and of itself has value where they go, you know what, you're right. I'm not getting what I want because of bad mindset or because of my interpretation of this situation or whatever it is. I don't have the credentials or whatever.

Ron: Right. Then you go here three ways or five ways or whatever it is. I only see three, here are three ways to fight for what you want. So once you have the, the, the intention of what your solution is, what you want it to be, here's three ways to fight for it, to get it. And I like to use the word fight because it's aggressive. You know, again like Rocky style, like he wanted, he wanted in the first movie is 30 years old. He wants to prove that he can go the distance. So the first thing he does is he commits to fighting. The second thing he does is he starts loving Adrian. Like he asked her out, he put some stuff out there and he builds his heart up. Third thing, he trains. Then the resolution of all those three things coming together is he goes the distance.

Ron: He sticks it out. He doesn't quit just as he doesn't quit on Adrian. He doesn't quit on pulling out of the fight or he doesn't quit on his training towards the end. You know? So the same thing goes for telling your client's story is that it's like, what do they want? What's standing in the way them getting it. That's the conflict and what are three solutions that you provide as a business owner that get them there. Um, and then the last part is the resolution. What does life look like when they get it? So that's where you really paint that transformation. We always talk about this in sales, right? Like you, you illustrate what their transformation will or could look like. Um, if they follow the steps and what are some options and how their lives are going to be better as a result of working with you. So it's kind of the story telling, uh, I feel like I did the definition and structure. I kind of

Katie: Perfect. Yeah, that's perfect. I love, um, I love the way he broke it down, you know, setting that, setting up that conflict, giving them three ways to fight for getting what they actually want. Um, what was the third,

Ron: The resolution solution.

Katie: And then what does life look like after that?

Ron: Um, so this is, Oh, sorry, sorry.

Katie: Like part of, I think why the webinars are not fun or informative is that they forget to tell stories around that, um, right. That you can provide a true pivot in thinking or mindset just by telling a simple story that could do a world more of good than content.

Ron: Katie. I'm so glad you said that. Thank you for saying that. Yes. So that's that's and that that's exactly what I, I, in a perfect world, I would have illustrated perfectly, but thank you for bringing me back to that point. Yes. So that's bringing it back to what I taught in that workshop in 2018, they were expecting, I think, for me to come in and just talk about how do you use the time that you, um, learned to cook, or how do you use the time that you did a funny, goofy thing in school or something? I don't know, whatever it is they thought just, you know, where it's like finding a bunch of stories that you have in your life and how to insert them into a presentation, whether it be a video or blog or whatever in our email blog who blogs anymore podcasts.

Ron: Right. Um, the difference now, I think is the difference. What I do is that we extract the structure of storytelling, the narrative arc, and we go, how do you create the buyer's journey in that format? And then, and then put stories to that. So I always give my clients like options of, you know, you can, you can tell your own story, but again, in my opinion, it's having an overall arc for everything you do in, in the way of, or in the format of, um, when you didn't know how to do this thing, how you got the skills to get the things. And then what life looked like when you got, when you started implementing the thing. Right? So that's how you use your story. Um, I'm surprised by clients that will opt for the craziest option, which is I'm like create a fictional character that embodies everything your client shouldn't do so that you're not making fun of anyone, but then it illustrates again, like with all the wrong things and how you could help them do the right things.

Ron: So there's like that option or, or, or, or just use case studies of your, your clients like, Hey, so I had a client recently that she had this problem just like you, and she, we did this and it's going to work out potentially similarly, or, you know, I'm excited to talk to you about your situation because we might come up with another solution. Right. But so it's like, again, it's, I think it's the option of use your story, make up a story or a hybrid where you're using your experiences and your experiences with your clients. It's not to say that you shouldn't tell the time that you were seven years old and you came across this treasure trove of gold and solutions and gifts and brilliance. And so for sure if it relates to a time that your client didn't. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Jeffrey: So one quick, quickly, um, to go back to that exciting hook, um, it C it sounded like it was mirroring something. I learned back in college, I was taking a director's class and in my script, writing teacher mentioned that there were four climaxes in every movie and basically, you know, little to, to large, to biggest. Right. And I remember him asking the class, like, which do you think comes first? You know, right. In a lot of people said, you know, either, either some people said, Oh, put the biggest one first, or somebody said, put the smallest one first. And he made a point to say, the third climax was the one you start out with and then go to the first and then the second, and then the fourth, right. To, to create kind of this high point a dip and then a rise again. And so that's kind of like what I was hearing you say earlier is where you give them a hook. You, you kind of lead with that quote unquote climax, and then build your story from there. And then of course, um, another climax towards the end or something.

Ron: Oh my God, Jeff, you're my bestie right now. I love that. You said that. So I use, I, I recently, um, I recently watched, uh, the, uh, the infinity war, like the Avengers, infinity war, an end game, the recent, uh, Avengers movies that made more money than like anything ever, you know, and game and game was like the most profitable. Right. Um, and so you look at like, you look at, uh, and game or, uh, infinity. Well, let's look at end game. The, the most recent one, cause that one is just three hours of misery. And then there's a funeral like that movie I cried. I mean, Oh my God. When I saw that movie, I, I went home crying. I was like, my Childhood was terrible. I, it brought up stuff

Ron: In me. I didn't know existed. I don't know why it was painful. Um, but, uh, so that movie starts right. You start that movie with this devastation that happened in the previous movie, which is that like half of the world disappears. So that would be that third, big climax, right? Yeah. Which is that it, you start off, something needs to be done right now. This is immediate. If it was a mild one, then it's like, Oh, well, there's no reason it's not setting. It's not setting the ball in motion where we need to resolve this matter. Right. And so the heroes spend all this time and then you can see it, right? Like th th they, they, they go, they, they killed the bad guy and that doesn't solve it. So now there's like smaller conflicts. And then there's the big, the big climax of like, they fix everything, right?

Jeffrey: Like every superhero ever known to man joins the club and joins the fight. Right.

Ron: I don't care how many times I see that movie when captain America goes Avengers assemble. It's like, I'll be okay. I'll be okay. I'm fine. It's very dry in Colorado.

Jeffrey: Yeah. I got something in my eye, something in my eyes.

Ron: I know, I know for, for like, um, a lot of people it's like the notebook that that's, what does, or Sophie's choice for me. It's like, man, that scene where they're like on your left, like, Aw,

Jeffrey: Oh, Katie's like, what are you talking about? See, this is, this is how guys geek out on emotional movies. These are our emotional movies. Right. I appreciate that perspective.

Ron: So what's funny. Yeah. Thanks Katie for that. But what kind of, what, um, you know, so that's, uh, that's an example of, of a, you know, a narrative film, you know, you have two hours, you have all these characters and stuff. What, and what I love about presentations, you know, in business, public speaking, or podcast episodes or videos, webinars is that I think in business, where, to your point from before Katie of like, how do people act more succinctly or speak more succinctly? I think if we have, if you set out to do an, have like a big superhero, Epic movie in your business speech, I think that's where a webinar. I think that's where a lot things fall short because it's too much information. It's too much story. So, so Jeffrey, like to, to point, it's like, I found that if people focus on one major conflict, one thing, one idea, like a Ted talk or whatever, and then they, they, they track that out. You still ostensibly with the three parts, you still get one, two, three, you still get three opportunities of like lesser climaxes. But that big climax is that much more impactful because we're following one idea. Does that make sense? So it's like, that's what I love about business art. You know, business storytelling is that you can, you, you can have just one track

Jeffrey: And, and I'll be the first to say, like, that's not easy, right? Having one singular focus, staying on focus, leading up to the climax, leading up to this big point, like staying in line with the whole narrative. That's not, that's not easy.

Katie: Yeah. I was going to say, when you, when you master the art of storytelling, you know, and I wouldn't consider myself a master, I'm still trying to write, but the, the more you present, the better you get at telling the story, or you, you start to see. And I, I got a lot of speaker training, pre COVID and you know, we, we talked a lot about the energy in the room, and you can tell sometimes you'll say one thing that just turned the energy off in the room, and you've got to bring that energy back up. Or we talk about the tension in the room. Like when you go to make the offer, you want to tell a story that has pension and you don't want to resolve the story because the offer is what resolves it. And people don't mix that up. And they build all this tensions anticipation, and then they flatten it and then they make an offer. And it doesn't go very well. So there's, so there's such finesse around storytelling and managing the energy of the listeners so that they're on the journey. Want them to be on like your controlling it? You're the director of it.

Ron: Yeah. A hundred percent. You know, I don't know if this is like the best example, but like the, you know, you know, when you talk to people, um, and I literally, I didn't want to confess it for years, but as of last week, I'm I was, I could not confess that I was one of these people for years, but people that don't want to niche. Right. And they, they, they say, uh, and you ask them like, what, uh, who's your target audience? And they're

Katie: Like, Oh, wait. And this was just you last week. No, I'm kidding.

Ron: Yeah. This is literally like, I knew my audience. I knew who my audience was. I didn't know what, what real service I was dead set on finding them. Um, but, uh, uh, uh, but you say like, okay, well, who do you serve? Right? Like what master do, sir? Who do you, uh, that's, that's a reference from infinity war, the mood, uh, what, uh, you S you know, you said, like, who do you work with? Who do you love working with? Who lights you up? And they go, well, really like anyone that has like a cell phone was me as a life coach.

Katie: I used to say anybody that has a life needs a life coach. Yeah.

Ron: And then, and then there's, cause there's no tension to it. Right. It's, it's, it's, it's overwhelming. It's so tense that you're overwhelmed, but there's no like thread where I go, like, let's say I'm like, like, uh, I don't know, this is maybe a ridiculous example, but like, I'm like, I'm a fire man that works with people that live in small communities that don't have, um, access to water. Right. Like that is a very clear, uh, that is a very clear problem that I solve. Like, I have a truck that is specifically designed to create water, somehow mix the particles of whatever. Right. Like, and I go into these small towns now that's, I'm speaking to a specific tension and that tension is engaging until I finish it and fill it finished the job. Does that mean, I mean, this is a completely extreme example, but like, but right.

Ron: Whereas like, if like I work with, I work with female entrepreneurs that have been mansplained much of their career, and now when it's time to be entrepreneurs and step into their own light, they want help in opening up their, their voices and finding what is authentic to them. Right. That's now there's tension to that. There's that tension of like, I've painted a picture of a woman who wants desperately and passionately to share her gifts with the world and life, bunch of experiences have led her to kind of feel trapped. It doesn't just have to be mansplaining. It, it could be a bunch of stuff, but it's like, life is true. There really is nothing specific

Jeffrey: 90% of the market out there. So, yeah.

Katie: And that's the thing is that it's going to speak to the women that are like, yes, I've experienced that a million times. Or I find myself second guessing my opinion, because I've been told what my opinion should be several different times in my life. And so now I've got my coach saying, yeah, you know, put your voice out there, be vulnerable, get visible. And, and, but if we don't craft a story around the fear of visibility and why you're afraid of visibility and what, let me tell you about a story about my client who had that same problem, you know, now we're bringing it kind of full circle, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And it's not. And like, to your point earlier, it's not always about you as the coach, but the clients that you've worked with that came in, you know, expressing that same, having that same problem. And

Ron: Yes. So to this point, like, so again, example of a story that I use often and I'll use it right now. It's PR so this is where I will use a story about me. I was at a networking event a few years ago, right. When I crafted that, the, the knowledge that this is why I want to serve, this is why I want to be of service to a, and I went to a networking event at, uh, at, um, Sherm conference, which is like the society of HR managers and stuff. And, uh, I went to a networking there and I spoke to like someone who's like super corporate-y. And she, she, you know, we went around the table and we were introducing ourselves. And I said, this is what I do. I work with women that have been mansplained and, and she goes, really that's a thing.

Ron: And she wasn't, she wasn't 70. Like, she was like, not that seven-year-olds was, I have amazing clients are in their seventies, but like, she was like, you know, he's leaving like in her thirties or forties. And she fully laughed out loud at me that she didn't believe it. She didn't believe it. She's like, Oh, no, she goes, I know I've heard of that stuff. But like, really? And, and I'm like, okay, like power too. And I fully turned on like a power to you. Haven't experienced it. My clients have experienced it. Yeah. So there was no tension there, right there that conflict didn't resonate with it. Or maybe it resonated so deeply that she didn't want to look at it. But like, I used that as an example of, it's not for everyone. Right? Your, your, like, if you understand your, your audience member, just like you were saying, you know, like, like the, and Jeff, you were saying, like, this speaks to women that had their voices taken away.

Ron: That's who my people are. Right. So the tension that, that, that has created that is engaging to them. I know because I'm in it. Um, and I don't know to the extent that they know as like a white male, like, of course, I couldn't know, but like, I've been around enough, you know, uh, women now that, that it's like, it's, the struggle is real. And so for her, that was not an ideal client. So my story is not effective for her, but my story is very effective for the women that I work with. So it's like, it's like, knowing, like you said, like knowing your audience and knowing what really speaks to them and what they want to achieve, that's where you either use your story, that, you know, a made up story or a story about other clients where they can see themselves and they go, yeah, like, that's me, you're talking about me and you get me. I love it when I, when I'm on, um, like introductory calls with, with, with people. And they're like, you get me, you see me. Yeah. And that's how you build that test

Jeffrey: To go down the tangent. But I love the paradox of marketing where specificity actually broadens your market. Right.

Katie: Oh my God.

Katie: That was soundbite right there. Boom.

Jeffrey: Somebody's got to write that down.

Katie: Write that down. Right. Allison, Allison's our project manager. She writes it all down for us. Good job, Allison, shout out to Alison miles. Amen.

Katie: But yeah, it is. Um, uh, what was I just going to say? Sorry. Um, the, Oh, I always am encouraging my clients to start a story bank. Um, right. So that number one, like, okay, when you have a story that works well great. But I've worked for companies for several years in a row, and I've heard the same story taught for like five years in a row. Like I'm thinking of this one event, it was a three-day event. And at the end of the third day, the leader tells a story about a summer camp experience. And he didn't go over. It was like a dating summer camp experience of when he was, you know, 16, 17, maybe dated her all summer and then like, and then it fizzled, I don't know. But the punchline you think I would remember it after hearing it for years in a row, every month for five years in a row. Um, but you know, that the result was like, he didn't go for it. And she tragically died in a car accident. And that was like the last time he didn't go for something now when he's nudged to go for it or right. Cause when you're a 16 year old boy go in for a girl is a big deal. Okay.

Katie: Fair enough. All right. To touché on that one. Um, and you know, so anyway, it's like, he must have discovered that that story really worked for him. He loved to tell it, you know, there's some narrative around that and, and that's great. I'm somebody that likes to like, kind of change it up a little bit. Um, so I don't bore myself with the same story. I feel like when you keep telling the same story over and over again, there's this cadence in your voice, you never get past the certain like, and then this happened and then no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Right. It just becomes a sing song thing instead of like this emotion that could have been in it. And, um, yeah. So I like story banks, like just collect a bunch of things that you can talk about. Um, even if it's about like, I was on a walk with my dog the other day and this thing popped in my head. Right. But we got to set the stage and yeah. I just like story banks so that people can pick from those.

Ron: You are so right Katie. Oh my God. And I'm going to totally be a hypocrite right now. Um, and in a way, like just demolish everything I've said about like before, about storytelling, about using their story. But like, I, my, um, I was, I was roomating with my, uh, with my ex-wife co-parent, uh, and, um, up until last year and, um, she called me out on it. She's like, you know, she's like, I'm not listening to your calls, but she's like every call you have pretty much, or every client you have, you always talk about how you play Jesus and Jesus Christ superstar in a community theater production a few years ago. And I'm like, I, and it just because it serves so many purposes, that story to me about like, like there's so much, there was, I was so miserable in it. Like, like I think the performance was okay, but like, as a person, I was like, I was going through a rough time.

Ron: Like there's so much like, there's I use it for that. Or if I'm ever talking to religious people, I'm like, you know, I know, but I, I played Jesus and I'm Israeli, you know, like, uh, so it's like, I, I, a story bank is crucial. I think you're right. So that, you're not just, um, because you know, in, in comedy I have, I've been doing a lot of the same jokes and the same bits for years now. Like, I mean, there got like, since 2013, when I started doing my, the first incarnation of the show that I do now. Um, so like, whereas like in that, like, I love it. Cause it's just, it's, it's the show. It is what it is. And I add to it, but it's, there's foundational things, but you're right. Like in, in professional storytelling and business storytelling, you get into that rut. And that story does start to feel like, like really, like, if someone's listening, I'm embarrassed, you know,

Katie: Like we need to like Marie Kondo that, right. It's like, you just ask yourself, does this story continue to bring me joy? And if not, let it go and tell it a story. Um, and you know, for what it's worth, some stories really work and hold on to them, for sure. Right. But don't, don't stop adding them to your repertoire because you might come across an even better story. Um, but you know, to also contradict what I just said, and then I understand there's a reason for telling the same story more than once. And it's because people feel like they know you, they're like, Oh, I've heard this story before they feel connected to you. Because of that. I remember when you told me that story of when you, you know, mine was always, um, you know, in 2013 I was getting really bullied by a neighbor and it was like, I got this point.

Katie: I mean, it was so aggressive and horrible that I got to this point where I'm like, I have to sell my home. And that's a pretty big deal. That's hundreds of thousands of dollars that I'm letting go of because I hate my neighbor that I share the house with in such a big way. They just, I couldn't avoid it. Right. So I tell the story, like in one fell swoop, I quit my job. I sold my home. I packed up everything. I owned, moved to California and just for and giggles, I decided to move in with a man that I had been dating long distance because that works well, let's just move right in together. Let's just not only blow up your professional life and your living space, but also your relationship world. And let's just, you know, start a business, quit your job and start a love life all at once.

Katie: Cause that's fun. And I've told, talk about a risk taker. So I can use that when I talk about risk, like I don't have an aversion to risk. There are times when I believe so strongly in what I'm doing. And even if I said to myself, that was kind of, some of those decisions were so dumb, but there are things that I would never do again, including moving in with that guy. But like moving furniture, I would never do that again. What a waste of money, sell it and buy it. Don't waste your time. You know? So there are mistakes that I made along the way. And so I can use that story in risk aversion or mistakes I've made along the way and let myself go. Or even my hero's journey of this is how I started. And then I spent a year flailing around. Right. So people remember that and they're like, Oh, I remember you telling that story. And it made me think of, and it connected. And that is my story. So I don't want to put a fear of someone to say, don't tell the same story twice. Absolutely. Tell your story lots of times, but just add a little flavor in. So you're not so monotonous with the story you're telling.

Ron: And that's a prime example too, of effective personal storytelling because it's relatable and it doesn't seem self-serving, it's not, it doesn't feel like, Oh my God, she's just talking about herself. It's like, when people say I'm one of those people, are you one of those people? Like, w what does that mean? Like, you're generalizing yourself for what reason anyway, but like, you, you're not generalizing yourself. You're, you're, you're sharing something vulnerable, something that doesn't make you look like, like you're made of iron, you know, like it makes you look, um, fallible. Right. And so that's really cool. Um, and that is something that we could use and relate to. Right. Because it's like, I can see it's like, I could see myself in that. I could say, Oh, you know what, you're right. In this situation, I should take a bigger risk. And what I'm doing is not as big as what you just did. Like, that is so huge. So like, yeah, that's, that's a great,

Jeffrey: Yeah, Katie, if you could risk all of that, you can risk anything.

Katie: I know, I know. It, it, it really was, uh, um, you know, part of how I tell the story is like, I couldn't, I couldn't live in the same home in the same city with the same friends who knew me as a school teacher and out myself as this new life coach that can help you turn your life around. And I, I was also holding some just old stories and shame around not being perfect. I don't know about you guys, are you, I don't know if you've been perfect your whole life, but I've messed up along the way.

Katie: And I was really holding myself to some impossible standard as a life coach that I needed to be perfect in order to help people. I didn't understand that your mess was your message and that it was okay to not be perfect. Right. Because I'm a one on the Enneagram and I'm just all about excellence and perfection and I, I struggle. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So, um, so anyway, it's just, it's interesting to think some people, like you said, Oh, wow, that's a story that talks about this big thing. And I didn't do something like that, but that's what I'm learning about. Storytelling is it can be something as simple as you know, I looked down at my dog and, you know, I, I took a deep breath and I didn't yell at her the way I wanted to, like that story can be just as impactful as I quit my job, sold my home, move across state and moved in with a guy that was a big mistake.

Ron: Well, yeah, because, because it, again, it's that Obi wan Kenobi thing, right? Like, so I looked at my dog and didn't yell. Did you, do you have a history of yelling? I just need to know that piece of the story. If you have a history of yelling and you looked at your dog and you didn't yell, and that means that you implemented a bunch of stuff that took you years to integrate into your body. Right. Then that is a very impactful, like there was this one moment where I was like, I'm going to reach for the bottle. And I said, no, I'm done drinking. You know, like, Oh, right,

Katie: Right. It's so it's like a moment in time and that's so impactful. Right. Like that. Yeah. And I love the way you paused it. Wasn't, you know, I went to pick up the bottle and then I didn't that doesn't land.

Ron: And that's the key because the conflict where we wanted it, because the conflict was so clear that we could play the conflict. We could play the tension of that, where it's like, like you're reaching and then you stop yourself. And you're like, decision. No, not today, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm done. Yeah. Cool.

Katie: This was awesome. Thank you for the chat about storytelling and just really helping, I think our understand that it's, it's not the chronological part of the story as much as like the content and knowing why are you telling the story? What's the conflict within it, right. What's that teaching point? How did it get resolved? And, and that moment in time could have been 30 seconds or 30 years, and it, and it's still a story that can be told in 20 seconds, you know? So, um, but yeah, I, I loved, loved the conversation and having you here. You're amazing.

Ron: Thank you so much. You guys are amazing. I appreciate you guys so much.

Katie: So how can people connect with you? Where can they find you?

Ron: Great question. Uh, so the, my website is artful speaking.com. Uh, and it's one L in there. So art full speaking.com or I'm on all of the, you know, Facebook and, uh, Instagram or LinkedIn, especially. Uh, so yeah, you can find me, Ron Ben, Joseph at any of those, you know, Facebook, Instagram, Ron Ben, Joseph Ben Joseph's last name? Hyphenated.

Katie: Hyphenated. Yes. Yes. That was one of my first questions to you When we first met, um,

Ron: that's such an Enneagram one move. Now I think about it. You're like, I need to know the structure of this design, which one's your first name?

Katie: Very, very black and white. Like this is wait, I don't, I don't understand this. It's different.

Ron: It doesn't compute.

Katie: Um, awesome. Well, we will make sure that our show notes include your website and your bio so that people know more about you. And thank you so much for your time today. This is a super valuable interview and Jeffrey, and I appreciate your time and expertise.

Ron: Thank you. I just wish I sort of Jeffrey didn't go on so much. He's always like,

Katie: I know we have that problem all the time. Like I can never get a word in that

Jeffrey: Guys. I really like center stage.

Ron: See, there you go. Jeffrey. There you go. That's what I'm talking about. You know, you keep yelling, just kidding. Just kidding. You guys are awesome. You guys are so good and like playing off each other and everything. So I really appreciate you.

Katie: Well, yeah. We're thank you. Yeah, we're good friends. And I do most of the talking and I'm like, Oh, Katie sh let Jeffrey, you know, get it. So sometimes I'm like, dude, interrupt me. It's okay.

Ron: Yeah.

Katie: So anyway, those are the ins and outs of Katie and Jeffrey, uh, on a podcast. At least we can see each other, so that helps, um, our communication. But anyway, thanks so much for joining us to the listeners. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to leave us a five-star review. It does us an enormous amount of good when you do that. And we really, really appreciate it. We'll give you a shout out when we see one, um, and then go ahead and hit that subscribe button also helps us out. So you can check out all the show notes for this episode at the launch squad, lab.com forward slash episode 13.

Announcer: Hey, thanks for listening. If you'd like to have clarity, confidence and excitement around your next launch, join us in the Lighten Your Launch Facebook group today at thelaunchsquadlab.com/facebook. We also invite you to download our free gift, the Lighten Your Launch starter kit, the free guide to creating an irresistible offer, pricing it right, overcoming tech barriers, and tapping into the energy you need for success. Get it now at thelaunchsquadlab.com/freegift. [inaudible].

powered by

Share

About the Show

The Lighten Your Launch Podcast is for Coaches and Course Creators who want a lighter online launch experience. Maybe you’ve done a few launches already, and feel exhausted just thinking about it! Or, it’s been one of your goals, but you don’t know where to start.

Tune in to learn from our team of experts, The Launch Squad, who aren’t afraid to dig into all aspects of launching: sales, strategy, technology, mindset, funnels, and even a bit of woo to get you through the toughest times. Let’s put a stop to perfectionism and procrastination, and finally take your launch from intimidating to money-making!