Jeffrey: Welcome to the light in your launch podcast today, we're talking about copywriting and how to do it, right? So stay tuned.

Announcer: Hey, we're the Launch Squad and this is the Lighten Your Launch podcast. We teach coaches and course creators how to lighten their launches. We're bringing you all of the tips and strategies to take your launch from intimidating to money-making. In this podcast, we talk about everything; the sales, strategy, mindset, technical and spiritual aspects of running your best launch ever. So if you're feeling overwhelmed and unsure of the next right step, we're here to bring clarity, confidence, and excitement into your next launch. This is the Lighten Your Launch podcast.

Jeffrey: Welcome back to the show. I'm Jeffrey summer Onno, and I'm back again with Katie Collins. And today we're introducing you to the amazing Danny page. When the launch squad was looking for a copywriter, we put our feelers out there. We did our research and we handpicked Danny page because of so many reasons that we'll get into today. Uh, but there was just so many things that stood out to us about how she approached copywriting. So Danny page is a launch copywriter for digital entrepreneurs. She writes high converting sales pages, emails, sequence, email sequences, and launch campaigns, helping entrepreneurs create the sales impact and freedom. They envision for their business and their lives. As a previous professional athlete, her competitive side brings in big wins and shiny results for her clients. She's lifted business owners, past many, six figure launches and knows that connecting with readers through the words you write is what can truly bring your funnels to new Heights. Danny, welcome to this, to the show.

Dani: Thank you so much for having me. It's great to chat with you guys.

Jeffrey: Oh, we, we're excited to have you here. So tell us like more about what got you into this. Why, what does it mean to be a copywriter and what, what got you into this whole?

Dani: Yeah, so I feel like the word copywriter is kind of the weirdest word. I also have to tell everyone, no, I'm not like a lawyer and have to anything to do with like the copyright. So yeah, this is something completely different. It is copywriting is the act of using words to motivate people to do something. So how I got into copywriting, I feel like I just completely stumbled in it, to be honest, I always was a, I was headed like a knack for writing, but I didn't think that I could actually make a career out of it. And it turns out you can, I kind of fell into this digital marketing world and I actually just kept seeing the word copywriting come up and I'm like, I need to figure out what the heck this word is and dove into it and discovered this whole world of writing emails and, you know, helping people online through my words. And yeah, I gave myself six months from my corporate job to, to go all in with copywriting and ended up quitting six months later. And haven't looked back,

Jeffrey: When did you first think, Hey, I'm really good at this. I can actually do this.

Dani: W like when I was little, I always knew that I could write. I remember I was living in Europe actually, and my mom would send me mail and she kept sending, sending me these books about like becoming an author. And I'm like, mom, that's not, that's not what I'm going to do. I'm not the next JK rallying. Right. So it was kind of always in the back of my head that I was decent at right. Writing it just the puzzle pieces never really went together on how to do it. And yeah. So when, when I found out about copywriting, I, I kind of started dabbling with blog posts first and quickly realized that that wasn't for me. Like, I think it was more the launch zone area that really pulled me in. Um, I feel like it's like my whole, um, competitive nature side. I just wanted to, those big launch wins. I wanted to see like that ROI, if this email is actually getting opened, whereas a blog post is just a little bit more stagnant and I wasn't able to see, um, how my words are actually compelling people to take action. So that's what really pulled me into, I guess, the launch world.

Jeffrey: That's, that's really interesting because, well, that brings, like what brings us to the next question here is like what separates regular copy from launch copy?

Dani: Yes. I think I would say regular copy is they're both vital for different things. So regular copy is more, um, like once you have your list going, you're emailing them each week and that's more, value-driven emails, connection, driven emails just to more stay in touch and, um, let them know that you're the expert. Then when you come to launch copy, you've kind of deserve the right, because you've built up that connection over time. You kind of have that right. To be able to offer them your, you know, whatever you're launching. So maybe you're launching a group program or a course. So when we look at launch copy, it's much more, the goal is different. We've kind of moved away from just that simple value driven and, um, more focused on the sale.

Jeffrey: Got it. And for those listening that the general copy is what might be referred to as like a newsletter or

Dani: Right. Your weekly newsletter, like a broadcast email, anything like that. Yeah.

Katie: Danny, I love how you were talking about, um, well, first of all, I love the beginnings because, um, I always say this as you know, now middle-aged, did I just call myself aged? Um, there, there are things when we're in college or preparing for our career that we can't see because we haven't joined the real world to see what else is there. So you hear, you know, the word author or writer and all we can connect is Oh, but that means I'm an author. Right. And then you get to the, to the real world and you're like, Oh wow, there's all these other places. I can use my writing skills and make money doing it. So I, I love that. And I, I saw that in my own career, like as an ESL teacher, I originally went to school to be a K through 12 teacher.

Katie: And I didn't even know ESL existed and I wasn't interested let alone teaching adults was not on my radar. And then as I got into like the real world, um, and I realized, I love teaching adults so much more and it was like, it took me to get into it and start taking action and doing the things to go, Oh, there's this whole other opportunity that they never mentioned to me. So, yeah, that's, I love that story. And I love how your mom could really see that in you and you know, that you stayed curious with it. So, um, I think that's so inspiring for people that are still just trying to figure out, you know, that are new to business and saying, can I make this work? And I also, from like a business coach perspective, um, can really see that, um, it's more lucrative for a copywriter to write launch copy because it's quantifiable, right? Yeah. And when you're writing blog posts for people, maybe you can look at the number of hits that they got on the blog or whatever, but, um, it's much more, you know, like I'm, I'm not going to hire someone to write a blog post for me, but I'm definitely going to hire, and we have hired you to write our sales page.

Dani: It's so true. It's such a good point. Like I have a hard time charging, you know, I know people out there charge hundreds of dollars for a blog post and it probably is a great blog post, but it, um, I, you know, you're able to charge more when the return is, is right there. Like if it's so clear, I mean, people have had six figure launches and it is no problem spending a couple thousand dollars on launch copy when, when that ROI.

Katie: Right. Right. So I thought that was smart too. So I always listen from a different lens of like sales coach, you know, business coaching. Um, but, um, I also, you know, do, do you consider like social media posts to also be copy? Cause I see a lot of people that like to write those really long posts around, like my life was a show and then this thing happened and now I'm going to teach you, but it's like the long, long, long. Yeah. So it's just, you consider that copy. Yeah. I mean it

Dani: Is copy like essentially the word copy is just a fancy word for words. So it, it is coffee, but, um, I think you always gotta look at who your audience is for when you're writing stuff like that is people aren't going to want the long, long drawn out posts, but some people are. And I think it's great to just switch it up really. And you know, it's something you can check out engagement did on a really long post versus something a little bit shorter. And then you would know a little bit better what your audience is looking for. Yep. Yeah.

Jeffrey: You know, a lot of people out there myself included, I would, I would S you know, it would be such a stretch of the imagination to consider myself a writer to consider myself good at copywriting to consider myself. I mean, I can barely spell. Right. So what, what is that? Is that a, a developed skill? Do you just gotta be born with it? Like how do, how does one be good at it?

Dani: And a lot of people feel that way too. I'm not a writer, but I like, I didn't go to school to become a copywriter. This isn't like a certification. Like it is all through experience. Kind of like what you were saying, Katie just like getting out in the real world and seeing what's out there. Um, so it's really you that can classify yourself to, to an extent to become a copywriter. Anyone is able to, um, yeah, it's just kind of understanding your audience, digging into it and understanding what people want and giving it to them is essentially what co great copywriting is, is listening to what people want and being able to really repeat it back to them and give that to them.

Jeffrey: I think, I think that's such a great point. And, uh, I'm thinking back to when the launch squad worked with you and a big part of what you did was market research. Like you reached out to our clients, you reached out to us, like you had, um, you actually had, uh, we actually had an extensive conversation. You, the launch squad, the whole team, like you had insightful questions, you listened a lot. And then you reached out to some of our clients and ask, you know, got feedback from them too. And I think that's probably such a big part of it is the ability to listen and kind of take those ideas and then be creative with them. Yeah,

Dani: Yeah, yeah, no, that's totally it. And a lot of people just think that they maybe know their audience, so get writing, but you really need to like put yourself in their shoes and listen to what they're saying. And, and that happens by, you know, being in the trenches with them, listening to what they're saying, you know, um, if you're getting DMS all the time, like on Instagram from, you know, people asking the same question, like this is great research, start to gather that, and you can use that content right in your sales pages and your emails.

Katie: You're speaking our language, you know, where, um, this week wrapping up our irresistible offer program, 12 week program. Um, and one of the modules is market research. And, you know, one of our, um, participants was doing it like week after week after week, she was still booking. Right. It just, it doesn't always happen as quickly as we want it to, like, we're like, I used to do this program in a different way. And I'd be like, all right, you have two weeks to do market research. And then I quickly realized some people just can't get it done in two weeks for whatever reason, but it's so important. And I think like, I think this is the value of hiring a launch copywriter. Is that the amount of time it takes to do it? Well, I think the business owner doesn't have that kind of time because we're doing other things like, you know, part of what we do with the launch squad is teach people how to launch it.

Katie: And there's lots of pieces in place. You know, if you're going to launch with a five day challenge, like, well, we got to start with your offer and then we've got to figure out what your free gift is. And then we've got to, um, write your five days worth of content for the five-day challenge. Right. Then we got to write the webinar. So like all that is still content it's still writing. And you probably, as the business owner know that content so much better, that like, that can flow right out of you. Right. But when it comes to writing, copy, people try to rush it. You know, I'll hear a lot of times, like I just have to get through this sales page. I just have to like bust it out. And it's like, that sales page

Dani: Is literally

Katie: The difference between a six-figure launch or not. And so that is not something to be rushed. And at the same time, because we're so busy doing these other things, it is to me, such a worthy investment to hire someone, to make your sales page, just kick. Like, and I know from us, you know, from our perspective, it was like, just to see it on a page, you know, and then to get it designed as well, by our amazing designer, Amy Green sky, it was just like,

Dani: Right. And sometimes it's worth it too, just to have someone put it as top priority because often when we're doing it for ourselves, it just get, Oh, I'll do it next week. It kind of gets like thrown under. Um, so having someone with like a clean set of eyes and, and sometimes to just someone who's not as close, because I know even writing for myself, I'm a copywriter, but sometimes you just get so close to it. It does help to have someone else actually just come in and look at it from a new lens for you. Definitely true.

Katie: And then I also think that it's helpful. Like if, if we had a hole in what we were offering or what our value was, what separates us from other agencies, that kind of thing, like you were able to come back and be like, Hey, I'm still missing this piece. Like you haven't answered that. And it just made us be like, all right. Yeah, we got to figure this out. And if we hadn't hired you to do that, we wouldn't have even realized that hole was there. And we have put out a sales page that was like, you know, begging several questions. So we still didn't answer. Um, so it is so valuable to have someone else looking at everything you're doing, including the five day challenge and the webinar, you know, I often hear people tell me, um, Oh, I've got the webinar covered. Like I can teach content all day long.

Katie: And I'm always like, yeah, but yeah, but is, is there a sales lens in your webinar? Like coming from a former teacher? I also know how to put out good content, but is it going to inspire people to buy? And if not, it's not good. It's not that your content, isn't good it's that your sales strategy is missing. Right. And they, and so that is where I come in. Um, in a lot of people's businesses is helping them see that. So I think it's the same for, you know, hiring a copywriter. It's just, like you said, that second set of eyes to look and say, Hey, this is, you know, like I have elements of a sales page and I don't know what to put here because you're missing that. Right.

Jeffrey: Right. Yeah. And that's part of it too, is having a professional ask the right questions so that they can do their job. Right. And just like Katie was saying like, Oh, I didn't think of that. I didn't know I needed that. And which means if you had done it yourself, you would have a sales page missing those pieces, right?

Dani: Yeah. No, that's a good point. And a lot of it is like being able to work backwards. And I, I know what I'm looking for. Cause I've done it so many times. So I know what I'm trying to find, which helps me be able to ask those questions. So if you don't know, you don't know, right. No fault to anyone, but yeah.

Jeffrey: Yeah. That's so good. And so in your, in your mind, coming from the lens of a launch copywriter, what are the pieces of a launch that you focus on?

Dani: Yeah, so I like am fearful saying all the pieces of a launch because there's just so many, right? There's so many moving parts. You, I mean, you've got your sales page, you've got your emails, your like your actual cart, open cart, close email campaigns. And then you've got like your pre-launch material. You want to send emails beforehand. So people are actually ready and know that, you know, something's coming down the pipe and then other prelaunch content too, you know, you're writing social posts, maybe you're writing content scripts for your webinar or your Instagram lives. And then like the webinar itself, you want webinar, email invites and like show up emails. Like it is a lot. Um, but no to that, I mean, that's like a full on launch and you don't need to do everything all at once. Like if this is your very first launch, right. You can scale back and just look at my sales page in it emails, you know, it's called like a minimal viable launch. And then each time you get more comfortable and you grow your audience too, you can add in more pieces. Maybe you want run ads next time. You know, this can all kind of come over time. So I do, I get nervous like saying all those pieces. Cause it, it does feel like sound overwhelming, but you know, the more you do it, the more, it's easier to just layer this stuff in.

Jeffrey: Yes. I'm glad you said that. Um, you know, some people just get stopped right there. Once, once you just start listing out all these things, they're like, Oh God, I could never do that. Yeah. Done. I will never launch ever. Cause that's a lot, but sounds exhausting. It sounds exhausting, but you can't, you can layer things and start with this element and this element and run it next time you already have this element and this element. So you add this element. Right.

Dani: I love that. Yeah. And like you have that sales page that you can keep using. Right. You're not rewriting everything. You've got those sales emails and you use them again for your next launch. So it just kind of builds off each other. And that's why it gets easier each time too.

Jeffrey: I love that. So where do, where would somebody start? What's what are the afraid to say the most important parts of it?

Dani: Yeah. Hey, I, I always preach to start with a sales page because for a couple of reasons, it's like, it's the meaty part. Right. And I actually suggest writing your sales page first, even if you don't even have your course built yet, but it, it kind of, once you have that sales page, it gives you that like full on outline that you need. It's all like in one spot and then you can actually work backwards. You can start grabbing stuff out of your sales page and use it as emails for, for launch emails. Like I can go grab, you know, the guarantee and make an email out of that. I can go look at like my objections in an FAQ question and just use that one question to inspire a whole email. So once you have your sales page, you can kind of start pulling stuff out and use that to, to work backwards with your other copy.

Jeffrey: Oh, that is so good. That is so good. And I'm glad you mentioned those pieces of a sales page. I'm going to put you on the spot, run those down. Do you know all the elements of a sales page?

Dani: Oh my goodness. Yes I do. So let's run through it. I mean, at the top of your sales page is when you, you want to pull them in. Right. So let's start talking about the problem and because people don't always have this problem top of mind, right. We want to kind of, um, bring it forward to them so they can actually resonate and say, okay, yes. Like, you know, you know, what's going on in my life. Um, so we kind of connect at the top with that problem. And we dig into that problem a little bit, people say call it like agitate. Um, so you can kind of agitate that a little bit, um, and just really paint that picture of what they're going through. Cause that's really the goal. We want people to understand, um, that we know what they're going through. Cause that, that helps them trust us that we actually have the answer.

Dani: So that's what happens at the top of your page. And then once you've kind of hooked them in, um, pulled them in and kind of, um, you know, planted that seed, then you can kind of, um, bring your offer forward, but we need to, the goal is really to make an argument to, we can't just say, here's the problem. Oh, here's the solution because people have, you know, it's not that easy. Right. I wish it was right. Um, but we need to talk about like, they've tried other things before, maybe this is why it didn't work or, you know, um, some false beliefs that might be holding them back. You know, we kind of want to weave this all into that argument at the top and then we introduce your offer and um, that kind of happens at the like a third way down your page.

Dani: And then we kind of run with your offer, why your offer is different and what it entails. So we've got the benefits, we've got the features, um, you know, like the really nitty gritty people often scroll right here first. Cause they actually just want to get into the meat. Like what is going on here? What, what is this offer? So yeah, so you build out everything that is involved in your offer and then you can kind of go into some of these, um, like persuasion techniques, I guess. So things like the FAQ's and the guarantee section, and maybe you want to have, who is this for section a. So that kind of happens at the bottom and I think I've got everything and then you want to, you know, um, kind of close it up with if there's, I think FAQ's, I mentioned, um, any closing remarks, any like last things you want, you really want this to be a personal letter, um, like you have those templated sections, but then you can kind of start weaving yourself into it a little bit more, bringing more personality in and just making it feel like a personal, like intimate letter.

Dani: Um, so I like to give it like a little sign-off so it feels actually intimate. Like we don't want it to feel like we're talking to everyone and like shouting this message. We want it to feel like an actual one-on-one conversation.

Jeffrey: Yeah. And I think that's what, like a really important part of, of any copywriting is to keep in mind that you're ma you're using this method, this medium as a way to connect. Yup. 100%,

Katie: You know? And, um, you were a guest speaker if you will, for our offer program. And one of our clients, you know, keeps repeating like something that you had said, which was like, people want to buy from a person. So don't wait to introduce yourself at the bottom. Yeah. Right. Totally.

Dani: Can I see often is waiting to the very bottom section to say about, about me or who this is. Let's bring you into the top of the sales page so people can connect early and it doesn't need to be like a whole about me section at the top, but you know, there's ways to like quickly introduce yourself or put your picture there with your name, just so they know who is talking. And there's a bit of a narrative like, Oh, you're reading this page and Oh, I can hear Katie. And I can hear Jeffrey telling me this as I read your sales page.

Katie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I loved that. I loved that advice and you know, that's where I'm, I know, I struggle. Like I enjoy writing copy, but um, sometimes I like forget to have fun. Yeah. It's like I had to unlearn everything I learned like in my master's degree program. Right. Because I taught English, it was very grammatically correct. You know, unlike Jeffrey I can spell. Um, and so, you know, using things like here's what you gotta do, or I'm gonna show you X, Y, Z. I'm like, you know, that kind of kills my whole master's degree. Um, and so, so I like how, you know, you can bring in this kind of flair and then it's that, I don't know, there's a creative license to that. I think I have to remind myself of that. If I don't tone it down in my copy and bring it down to that like fifth grade level that they recommend, then I'm just speaking over people's heads and it's not connecting at all. And so what was correct in college? Isn't correct.

Dani: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Back in college, we had that very, you know, rigid five paragraph essay. And it's not like that here, here, it's more a, just a, like a coffee chat with a friend. Um, so I, I always suggest just reading your copy out loud, because that way it can sound a lot more natural. Um, like you were mentioning the, I gotta do this, uh, if that's how you say it, that's actually how I would tape it. Like G O T T a. It just, it, it sounds more easy and conversational. Yeah.

Jeffrey: Yeah. And I think that's hard for some people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

Katie: Letting go of the need to show that you're educated. Yes. Yes. I think that, for me, that was me, you know, like just the one on the Enneagram, like it's right. Or it's wrong. Yeah. It just shows you how smart I am. It's so true.

Dani: So true. A lot of people feel like that too. And I mean, I just look at it as they see how smart I am with the course that I'm providing, not in like the fancy, um, like I don't need to go to thesaurus and find all the big, you know, um, better words. Um, you know, it, it speaks for itself in, in your course. Yep.

Jeffrey: And for me, I completely own it. Like, I mean, I don't need to spell to help somebody master their funnel, so it's okay.

Katie: It's okay. Um, yeah. I've replaced my thesaurus with the book called words that sell. Yes. Yes. That's true. Brett Bragan are brand new and yourself.

Jeffrey: What is that? Oh, that's as they both turn their heads and look behind them.

Dani: Oh, okay. I thought that was the right Edward's book. Copy that.

Katie: Oh yeah. That's another good one. Copy that sells. Yeah. That's a good one. Um, but yeah, no words that sell is literally a thesaurus for internet marketing and it's really good. We always end up giving it away as a prize for our challenges. I love it. Yeah. We use that like almost daily type of stuff in our meetings. I'm like, hold on, let me get my book on the arms reach. There it is. Pull it off the shelf. Yep. Um, so let's see, is, so when you're thinking about the different, like when you think about launch copy, you know, we chat about this a little bit before we hit record. Um, you know, that there's a goal for each thing you're doing, and it's not like when you're writing those emails that are drumming up excitement for your launch itself. Right. Um, we call those the launch runway emails.

Katie: And so the point of those emails is not to sell your offer it's to get them excited or agitated with the problem they have. It's making them more aware that they even have that problem. So that when you say, Hey, I'm doing this thing, this five day challenge, this live launch retreat, whatever you want to call it, they're like, geez, I need that. Yeah. But what's funny is like 21 days ago, they didn't maybe know that they needed it. Right. But that your copy there gets them understanding that. Um, so I'm just curious, like, you know, is there a, my direction to my clients? And I was curious if you would agree or if there's a better way to say it. Cause I'm always trying to like help them figure this stuff out. Like I just always say, ask yourself before you start writing the series and Jeffrey, and I both always say write it in a Google doc so that you can see the series.

Katie: And if you're threading a story, then you can see that in play and read through the whole thing and make sure it makes sense. Number one, but always start with, what is the purpose of this series? What do I want, like, how will, I know it did its job, right? And so maybe it's like a percentage of their email list that registered for the thing. Like, so what are some, like, I guess the question is like, what are some metrics that we could help people judge, if they're doing a good job writing their copy. Have you ever given that any thought for sure. Money?

Dani: Yeah, definitely. I, I think every answer we need to know is always in the metrics. So it's worth like I have something called CEO days and once a month I dig into all of my metrics. So, you know, how are my emails performing? What, like, what is the open rate? What is the click-through rate? Um, so definitely you kind of just want to, um, like put on that CEO hat and really dig into what those numbers are saying. Cause they are saying something. Uh, so yeah. Looking at your click-through rate, looking at your webinar, maybe when did people fall off the webinar? Were you able to even get to the end to offer something? Um, cause it's amazing. You might think your, you might think your offer a good offer, uh, because it didn't sell on your webinar, but in reality, people didn't even make it to the end of your webinar to hear the offer. Right. So in fact, it's not that the offer is the problem. It's, it's maybe that's a webinar needs tweaking. So you can kind of be a bit of a detective too, to really understand where things are breaking in your, in your launch funnel. Yep.

Katie: Yup. Love that CEO days. That's great. Jeffrey and I have wealthy Wednesdays. Yeah. And we were learning some stuff and I keep calling it CEO school. I like it. Like I didn't, I didn't go to school to be a CEO, but here I am, I am one trying to figure out stuff. I never thought I'd have to figure out what they didn't teach. Pretty much any of this in school. Did they? Exactly, exactly. Um, Oh my God. I could go down that tangent, but I won't how much we value paying for our education, but yet people still don't value paying for business support to the same level. Oh, everybody wants it for $497 and it's like, how much did you pay for college? So true. And it's not your career. Totally.

Dani: I always think about is like the guarantees and the refund. Like could you imagine asking for some sort of guarantee in university,

Katie: Right. That would never happen, but he right

Dani: In this world, it's like an expectation, right? Yep. Yeah.

Jeffrey: Gosh, that is so funny. You're applying for a college. Uh, so this is Harvard, right? Do you have a money back guarantee on this? What if I don't have the job I want after four years here? Yeah.

Katie: Right. My biggest thing was, Oh, I'm going to school to be a teacher in my salary is way less than the per year that I paid for the degree to get the job. It's going to take me years to, to pay that off. Yeah. So anyway, there's some good memes. I think we need to just air around this good idea. We should have a, a launch squad meme copy session. Oh my gosh. Um, so one of the things that you know is kind of like, I dunno if it's your tagline, but you know, we always kind of say like, I think the episode title is like an bore, your copy launch, right. Or your launch copy. Right. So how do you make it on boring? What's your email tagline that you have underneath something?

Dani: Yeah. It's never average only. Awesome.

Katie: Yeah. I mean, that's awesome. I wish I had a fun, um, so how do you help people not sound like everybody else because that is kind of the pet peeve. You read these pages and you're like, wait, wait, I've read this 1,000,001 times. Yeah.

Dani: And it's so true. And I think one thing we need to kind of wrap our head around is that it doesn't happen in that first, the, like the first draft, like often when I write something, write a sales page and it probably is a little mundane, but I come back and keep layering in more personality. So I kind of just look at a paragraph and think like, how could this be more exciting? How could I get more senses in is a good one. Like, can I hear something? Can I touch something? Can I smell something and like really try to bring more personality into each section. So yeah, I think it's just understanding that it's not natural. I don't just come out with these very clever words. Um, I start, we all start the same and then it's just layering more of that in,

Jeffrey: Uh, interesting. So tell, tell us more about that process. I'm curious of how you came up with our, our sales page copy and like I know it must have taken you a good solid seven, eight, nine hours to do that. Like what's, what's that process like, first of all, that's not including all of the research. Right.

Dani: And, and I think it all does truly come out in the research. Um, I ask fun questions. So I get people talking, um, you know, I've asked like, um, what would your room, like, what are some negatives things your roommate might say about you? It's a very like obscure question, but it gets people talking about maybe their faults or what's different about them, you know? So I can ask questions like this and start pulling things out of people. And it sparks for some really, um, you know, fun information. And once I have that, then I know I can weave this sort of stuff into a sales page.

Jeffrey: I think that's kind of amazing because yeah, it is different. And I think that's, that's really the secret sauce. Actually.

Dani: There you go. And, and, and again, kind of what we stated before, it's all in the questions that you ask. So I asked different questions. I get people, you know, looking at things from a different angle. Um, cause then once I have the info there, they're the ones telling it to me. I, I, you know, find ways to throw it into the copy.

Katie: I love how you said, you know, bringing in the senses. I think that that, um, can help, you know, no matter what you're writing, um, you know, I remember learning how to write like the hero's journey story, uh, back in the day. And, you know, they had said like the word visceral really made sense to me at that time, you know, but it was like, don't tell me about it. Like have me have that visceral effect of, you know, I'll never forget the example my friend had said she was talking about like, you know, ending things with her husband and, um, and she fell to the shower floor, you know, SOPs. Right. So instead of like, I was so sad. Yeah. You know, but like I could see that I've never forgotten it. That was like a decade ago. I still think of that, you know?

Katie: So it's true. It's really like, how can we show them? Exactly. And then like, you know, something that I got from, um, James Wedmore was not enough. He created it, but I learned it from him was the video camera someone's life. If you were to take a video camera, like after they take your program and they get the transformation, if you were to bring that video camera back into their home, what would you then see? And that question forced you to not say, Oh, they'd be transformed. Well, how is that showing on the video camera? Yeah. What do you see? You know, that it is

Dani: Well much showing, not telling you to have a sleep consultant client. And instead of like, she always felt like she was saying, you know, get your baby to sleep 12 hours a night, which is true, but it doesn't really paint that picture. Right. So, um, now we're talking about, um, being able to, you know, have a glass of wine after dinner and put your feet up and watch your favorite show, you know, without a baby coming down, screaming every night, you know? So just trying to really paint that picture for people to, to see. And another thing too, that you can do, like, um, immediately to help you, because there's always like there's a hundred books, copy books out there, but what I find what actually helps me the most is, um, like mystery novels, like novels that have nothing to do with copy, just actually reading, um, you know, different types of books, fiction books, I find that really helps with your writing as well.

Katie: Interesting. Yeah. I like that. I do always, I took a creative writing course in high school and um, I always look at the first sentence of every story I read. Yes. Like how it pulls you in, it was a dark cold, stormy night, right. Like, all right. Yeah. I know where the, you know, I know the, um, yeah, like the effect.

Dani: Right. And that's exactly what we want to do in, in emails too. Right. And I'm not going to start an email saying, hi, my name is Danny and today is a wonderful day out, you know? Yeah.

Katie: No one in, so, so let's

Dani: The point. Yeah. We, we want to do that exact same thing in our emails, in our copy as well.

Katie: Yeah. And in our videos, um, you know, always like so many people start their videos with, hi, I'm Katie Collins and I'm with the launch squad. Well, you just wasted your seven seconds now. And meanwhile, like I use stream yard and so you can see the launch squad logo and you can see my name. So I don't need to say any of that right there, you know, and really starting with the question, what would it be like, or did you know, or right. And that is what hooks people in. So have you ever thought about, um, so yeah. Um, I think that, I hope for our listeners, you know, it's just understanding that you're only going to get better at doing this by studying and practicing. And so, um, I actually had emailed myself something, I don't even know where I heard it, but I was like, Oh, I love that.

Katie: It was, um, I found my voice by using it. And I just loved that when it comes to so much, right. Like so much, it's always about like taking action. It's doing it. Good enough. It's just getting started. Like you said, you write the page and then you go back and then you bring in the senses or you, you know, I always use the phrase, fluff it out. Right. So it's like, you get your bones in and then you go back. But you know, it's not a one and done thing. Totally. And it's not, you know, that you can read one book and go up, I'm a copywriter.

Dani: Exactly. It's a bit like, you know, a muscle learning, how to flex it really. And just becoming like a student of copy, like starting to read other people, sign up for other people's lists and see what they're writing about and see what makes you click and, you know, what interests you, why you stopped on a sales page or why you kept reading a sales page and really just understanding what works for you because often that will, um, you know, you can use that sort of technique on your audience as well. Yeah.

Katie: Yeah. And yeah, I loved, um, you know, I know you had said to our, um, in our program too, you know, that presentation, you know, have a file of like a swipe copy file, you know, you can screenshot cut and paste, you know, and it's like, it's not to copy, but just, just be inspired and yeah, again, like I remember, um, you know, learning, like, I didn't have to have click here on a button that you get to change that. And it's like, you know, get your goods here or slide on in or whatever, like whatever works for your brand. Um, I just loved, I loved that. I don't know. But, um, it it's truly a muscle and, you know, it's true for sales and marketing and you know, my kind of hero's journey story is saying like that for the first year of my business.

Katie: I said, I don't know crap about sales and marketing. And it's like, I look back on that. I'm like, what a waste of a year, because I just wasted time saying, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Instead of being like, well, how could I figure that out? And right. And again, I feel like it's this college thing. Like I learned everything I needed in those four years. And then I went and got a master's degree and I learned everything I needed and now I should just know it all. And it's like, no, nothing that I did in those six years of very expensive education taught me anything about internet marketing and everything I've done. I had to learn, figure out or hire, you know, but to simply buy a book. And like, I just love, you know, um, one of our participants, you know, as soon as I said, the Ray Edwards book, how to write, copy that sells, she went out and bought it. Right? Like she read that whole thing. I mean, that is how you truly become successful in business is just learning about these things, giving them a try. And then sometimes you do get to a point where you say, this is not my jam. I'm going to go hire Danny page. Right.

Dani: But yeah, it's true. You got to do it. Like, I'm not going to read up on how to ride a bike forever or how to, you know, have a better golf swing. You got to just go and do and learn it and experience it.

Jeffrey: And, and what about for those out there who are saying, uh, I'm not ready to hire a copywriter or, or something like, what's your message to them? You know, what would you say to that?

Dani: I, to be honest, at some point, I do believe that if you're brand new, I tell people you are too early to hire a copywriter because, um, like if they don't know their audience or they don't know what their offer is, how, how am I going to be able to write for that if they don't know. Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's true. You need to understand that stuff first, your offer first, um, and your voice first before you can, you can say it, right? So, um, there is a point maybe, um, that they are too early, but you know, if they've been doing this for a few months and they know what their offer is, um, it's worthwhile to invest. I am a big proponent of, um, you know, uh, investing in yourself to grow yourself, to grow your business. You know, there's people in our own zone of genius. I'm not going to try to figure out all the tech for my funnel because I don't know it. And I know Jeffrey knows that like the back of his hand, you know, it's, it's just wasting time when you're trying to do. Yep. I'm trying to be in your zone of genius when it's not. Amen.

Katie: Yup. Yup. Awesome. Well, this was amazing. We're always so happy to have you in our circle. We get to claim you as part of the launch squad team, which we're so excited about

Jeffrey: Whether you like it or not, Danny

Katie: [inaudible], we must have to spell her name. Right? You are

Dani: A bad speller. If you're not getting my four letter name,

Katie: Right. Just hit it twice on the sales page that you wrote for us. Oh, that's good.

Dani: That's all that is authentic. Right?

Jeffrey: Screw you guys. I'm editing this out.

Katie: No, you're not. Uh, well we have a lot of fun. It's the launch squad and we're so glad you're, you're here with us. And so tell us, where can our listeners connect with you and get to know you better?

Dani: Absolutely. So I hang out on Instagram. Most my handle is Danny page.online. Uh, so definitely feel free to, um, come hang out with my DMS. I'm always up for chatting and I do have some free swipes. If you're interested in some email templates to get you going, it's at Danny page.com/sales email templates, and there's a few launched, um, launch emails in there to help you get rolling.

Jeffrey: Awesome. We'll put that in the show notes for sure.

Katie: Yup. Yup. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Danny. This is just awesome. Um, and thank you all for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five star review and hit that subscribe button. You can check out all the show [email protected] forward slash episode 22, 23, 23. Should I be recorded that whole thing around here? All right. All right. Bye everyone. Bye everyone.

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